Obedience

Comments3

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  Coyote August 6th, 2021 20:20

  I remember reading about that experiment. Truly horrifying what people are capable of. Great write that captures the essence of that experiment perfectly.

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  Doggerel Dave August 6th, 2021 23:09

  Thanks for the reminder Hannah, It's been some time.....
  You will probably (if you haven’t already) come across the Stanford Prison Experiment.
  Both this and the Milgram have some commonalities and are the subject of much debate with respect to their validity, as is the mode within the social sciences which see debate and intellectual conflict a part of their rationale.
  However History (another of the social sciences and in many ways the most interesting) provides evidence that at least the conclusions from these experiments have some validity. People have this innate desire to agree within their group. Conflict is inhibited there. They also submit to authority far more than they would care to believe…..and so on…
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    HannahElisabethAugust 7th, 2021 12:50

    Hi Doggerel Dave,
    
    I'm sadly all too familiar with Philip Zimbardo and his studies. If you haven't checked it out already, the blue eyes brown eyes experiment by Jane Elliot falls into the same category. All the studies were attempts to understand the atrocities after WWII. The irony is, despite the worldwide moral outrage, these studies suggest the overwhelming majority of us (65 % in Milgram's first study) are capable of the same.
    
    Unfortunately these experiments serve more as a warning to researchers on the ethics of deceit and weighing the costs and benefits of such studies regarding harm done to participants versus the insight we gain from them. A balance we all have to find when designing certain experiments. Some argue we gained more insight that outweighed the harm to participants, but the participants in both studies were deeply troubled after. As for validity, Milgram did very well to control his experiment. And other research backs it up. I can't say the same for Zimbardo and Jane Elliot, however.
    
    But yes, in sum, group think is a dangerous thing and blindly obeying authority can make us do treacherous things if we don't question it. It truly blows my mind something as simple as 15 volt increases and a lab coat to indicate "authority" is all it takes to make people forget what they stand for... As this is a poetry forum, I won't write you an APA paper on all these topics but this is the very thing I seek to research for my dissertation. You might find the term "stochastic terrorism" interesting.
    
    Thank you for the engaging commentary!

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    Doggerel DaveAugust 7th, 2021 21:37

    Thanks HannahE for the time you put into your response.
    ‘Understand the deep underlying motivation for these studies, which came with the shock of discovery after WW2 (although not all were unaware – but we won’t go there). So these studies and similar make plain those deficiencies in the human…character?.... and here I can only advocate for the discipline of History (incorporating as it does all the other social sciences) to provide answers to the question of how or what can be done.
    
    Two points: History is possibly the most contestable of the social sciences (doesn’t make it any less valid though), plus even if positive conclusions can be drawn as to the optimum social conditions which would eliminate (moderate?) these undesirable human characteristics, this doesn’t mean they will be implemented…….
    
    Thanks for ‘stochastic terrorism’. Freedom of speech is not an absolute right any more than poisoning the water supply is. And remedies are being canvassed right now, aren’t they? A long debate ensues with other ‘target groups’ produced in the process.
    

5 more comments

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  Heart of Babel August 9th, 2021 23:23

  This is such a shocking poem…

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    HannahElisabethAugust 10th, 2021 01:30

    Quite electrifying really...

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    Heart of BabelAugust 10th, 2021 12:19

    Silly! Dad jokes aside, I really enjoyed how you presented this. The simplicity of the poem, in my opinion, captures the atmosphere very well, at face value, while the much deeper understanding is almost anxiety inducing and traumatic, as I imagine you were intending. It is superb in its delivery.

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