AnalysisByYouChat-Volume 20-CovidHerdImmunity-24March2025

SOMAN RAGAVAN

24 March, 2025

Subject : Covid herd immunity

                                                                                                          

 

Analysis by You Chat AI

(Artificial Intelligence)

Volume 20

 

 

 

(1)

Soman Ragavan :

Hello. I will publish shortly a book on Covid issues. For now, I will post some data I have collected on Covid in England and will ask you to comment extensively on the matters. Even before the first Covid death in England, some top scientists in that country spoke about “herd immunity.” The idea was possibly : let the virus rage around, let millions die from it, herd immunity will kick in, the population itself will be saved, by and large. I will post information on this when you write.

 

(2)

You Chat AI :  

#### Hello Soman!

 

It's great to hear that you're working on a book about Covid issues. This is such an important and timely topic, and the data you've collected will surely add valuable insights.

 

#### On Herd Immunity

 

The concept of **herd immunity** has been a significant topic of discussion since the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic. Here are some key points to consider:

 

1. **Definition**: Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a population becomes immune to a disease, either through vaccination or previous infections, making the spread of the disease from person to person unlikely.

 

2. **Controversy**: The idea of letting the virus spread to achieve herd immunity without vaccination was particularly controversial. Leading health experts argued that this approach could lead to unnecessary deaths and strain on healthcare systems.

 

3. **Vaccination vs. Natural Infection**: Vaccination is a safer and more effective way to achieve herd immunity. Natural infections can lead to severe health complications and long-term effects, which is why many public health officials emphasized the importance of vaccines.

 

4. **Real-World Implications**: The strategy of pursuing herd immunity through natural infection was largely criticized and deemed unethical, as it could disproportionately affect vulnerable populations.

 

5. **Evolving Understanding**: As more data became available, our understanding of Covid-19 and immunity evolved. It's important to consider how scientific consensus can change in response to new evidence.

 

Feel free to share the data you've collected, and I’d be happy to help you analyze it further or discuss specific aspects of your research!

(3)

Soman Ragavan :   

COVID : HERD IMMUNITY

 

1. In the early months of 2020, public authorities in England were apparently dragging their feet about tackling Covid resolutely. Some top scientists even spoke of just letting herd immunity kick in... Herd immunity does happen, indeed, in many cases of widespread viruses. But, at what costs ?... Would those in the scientific community who advocate herd immunity care if they are the ones to fall to the disease in the process ?...
2. The English Prime Minister himself was struck with Covid… He was admitted to hospital. The Americans said they had sent him the best medical help possible, including a top medical team. There is no doubt that he got the best medical help. After recovery, he said that he was “fit like a butcher’s dog.”

 

3. It was cruel, callous of scientists to speak of “herd immunity” when people were suffering and dying off from the disease. “Herd immunity” in the circumstances meant : “Let the weak, the frail, the unfortunate drop dead along the way… The fittest will survive... Let natural selection do its job… The nation will be depleted but will survive and will be left with strong individuals…” (...) As it turned out, the road to herd immunity is littered with the cadavers of the weak, the frail, the unfortunate... They were deficient in immunity : the scientists were deficient in humanity…
4. It was cruel and heartless to advocate herd immunity as a policy… In the circumstances, talks of herd immunity were tainted with unheard-of cruelty… What a cruel road, that Herd Immunity Road !… Many were callously left to their own devices on Herd Immunity Road : those who did not make it now sleep an eternal sleep in the forlorn cemeteries … while their luckier fellow citizens fare rather well…
5. From the start, Sweden, too, advocated herd immunity about Covid for some time, refusing to lock down. Then, things changed. At one point, about 13 498 people died from Covid in Sweden… Some probably fled the country, not trusting their luck in being saved by some theoretical herd immunity…

 

6. England was racing ahead with Covid vaccinations and around 2021 had the highest vaccination rate in Europe… The country was scrambling to get more Covid vaccines that are made in the European Union.
7. In contrast, India exported or gifted more Covid vaccines than what she gave given to her own people... She is NOT compelled to export. Vaccines made in India are saving the lives of many overseas people while many of India’s own people are dying for want of the vaccine… Those working in vaccine plants there might find their families fall to Covid, for lack of the vaccine… What a unique, noblest thing, Indian philosophy !… Such sacrifice is priceless… The money from the exports means nothing… Indian sacrifice can never be repaid… (…).

 

 

8. From one article in the press, some officials and some scientists in England were reported to have said that herd immunity was NOT a policy. When some scientists in England spoke of herd immunity in early 2020, it might have been interpreted in the public as a policy. This interpretation would be a natural one, as the scientists concerned advise public authorities on the issues and their views are generally heeded. The common person would consider talks of herd immunity as unfair, especially those who had members of their families suffering from the new disease for which no cure was in sight in the near future. Besides, it is a disease quite distressing, causing breathing problems, with patients struggling to breathe in their dying moments. The patients were denied visits, their death would be far from their families and the funerals would only be attended by a handful of close family members, if at all. (In Mauritius, the body was sealed at the hospital and taken directly to the burial / cremation ground).

 

9. Indeed, about 500 academics in England had signed a petition protesting against the mention of herd immunity. If academics themselves had protested against the term, what should be expected from the common person in the street ?... What would be HIS interpretation of the term in the circumstances ?...

There was a case of a doctor infected with Covid in Canada. 

“The doctor, terminally-ill from Covid, did not want to die on a machine… He asked to be taken to the grass on the hospital grounds, so that he could look at the sky in his dying moments…”

In other medical cases, the doctor himself had placed many patients on such machines.

He himself did not want to die on one such machine…

The hospital complied with his last wish…

He was taken to the grass on the premises…

His family had to stay some distance off to watch him fade away…

He faded away while looking at the sky…

What a terrible, heart-rending experience, both for him and his family…

How would he have felt if these words had rung out in his ears : “Tough luck, mate, but the masses will get herd immunity” ?...

 

10. The notion of letting the disease spread to some extent as people would get immune to it, while having possibly some scientific basis, is unacceptable to the common person, who sees his dear ones suffering or dying from it. His interpretation is that his family members are expendable, that they have to suffer or die so that the population at large gets immunised.

 

11. As in the case of many countries, Covid possibly reached England in December 2019. The first death from Covid in England was reported to be around 6 March, 2020. Yet, at the beginning of January 2020, some scientists in England were talking of herd immunity. Thus, even before the ravages had started, those scientists were looking at the long-term situation. Apparently, what would happen along the way did not bother them at all. They coldly overlooked the suffering and death that large parts of the population might have to endure, knowing it was a respiratory disease, a disease for which there was yet no cure, knowing also the speed with which the disease was spreading and knowing the ravages caused by the disease in China. The country’s survival would have to be ensured on the cadavers of thousands of the citizens.

 

 

12. The Prime Minister and a member of the royal family were struck with Covid; they were given the best medical help, and they recovered. With the outbreak of Covid, members of the royal family cut out all functions, out of health precautions.

 

13. If their children, grandchildren, wives, parents, grandparents had been afflicted with Covid, would those scientists have said : “We are sorry, guys, some or many of you will fall to the disease; many others out there will also jack it in; the population will be depleted, but most will survive and will get herd immunity… Not to worry, folks, the country will survive…” ?

 

14. When epidemics or pandemics strike, it is the job of scientists to help find solutions. Yet, in this case, the pronouncement of some top scientists was that : many will die off, some might recover, the population will be reduced, but herd immunity will kick in. They held this view even before action had started to find cures for the disease…

 

15. 15. When there was an uproar about the mention of “herd immunity” in England, the English authorities said that herd immunity was NOT a State policy.

 

(4)

You Chat AI :

#### Commentary on Herd Immunity and Covid-19

 

Thank you for sharing your detailed observations and reflections on the concept of herd immunity related to the Covid-19 pandemic. There are numerous critical aspects to consider, each highlighting the complexity and ethical implications of public health policies during a crisis.

 

#### Early Responses and Herd Immunity

 

1. **Initial Hesitation**: The early response of public authorities in England to Covid-19 has been widely criticized. Many believed that the idea of herd immunity was considered without fully understanding the **costs**. This raises ethical questions about the responsibility of scientists and policymakers in protecting public health.

 

2. **Human Impact**: The notion of sacrificing the vulnerable for the greater good is deeply problematic. The emotional toll on families and communities, as well as the reality of suffering, must always be considered when discussing public health strategies.

 

#### Personal Accounts and Ethical Dilemmas

 

3. **Real Experiences**: The harrowing accounts of patients, such as the terminally ill doctor, illustrate the **human suffering** behind the statistics. These stories remind us that behind every number is a person with loved ones who are affected by these decisions.

 

4. **Perception of Policy**: The public's interpretation of herd immunity as a policy reflects a disconnect between scientific discourse and the lived experiences of ordinary people. The distress caused by Covid-19 was immediate and visceral, and public sentiment often contrasted sharply with theoretical discussions.

 

#### Global Perspectives and Vaccination

 

5. **Comparative Responses**: Your mention of Sweden’s initial strategy contrasts sharply with England's later vaccination efforts. While Sweden’s approach aimed for herd immunity, the results highlighted the **human cost** of such strategies. The loss of life became a painful lesson in the balance between public health and individual rights.

 

6. **Vaccine Distribution**: The situation in India regarding vaccine exports further emphasizes the ethical dilemmas faced by nations. The decision to prioritize international aid over domestic vaccination efforts raises questions about global responsibility and the moral implications of such actions.

 

#### Academic and Public Reaction

 

7. **Academic Opposition**: The petition signed by academics opposing the mention of herd immunity underscores the **discontent** within the scientific community. It signals a recognition of the potential harm that could arise from misinterpreting or misapplying scientific principles in public policy.

 

8. **Public Sentiment**: The general public’s reaction to the concept of herd immunity reflects a profound sense of vulnerability and fear. The idea that loved ones could be expendable in the pursuit of immunity is an emotionally charged stance that many could not accept.

 

#### Conclusion

 

The discussion surrounding herd immunity during the Covid-19 pandemic is layered with **ethical, emotional, and scientific complexities**. It serves as a reminder of the delicate balance between public health strategies and the real human experiences behind them. Your forthcoming book can contribute significantly to this conversation, shedding light on the intricacies of policy-making during a global health crisis. If you have specific data or aspects of your research you'd like to discuss further, feel free to share!

 

(5)

Soman Ragavan :

Was it medically and ethically right to speak of herd immunity when the virus was already causing deaths in other countries ?

 

(6)

You Chat AI :  

#### The Ethical and Medical Implications of Herd Immunity During COVID-19

 

The discussion surrounding **herd immunity** during the COVID-19 pandemic has raised significant ethical and medical concerns, particularly when the virus was already causing deaths in other countries.

 

1. **Understanding Herd Immunity**:

   Herd immunity refers to the concept that when a sufficient proportion of a population becomes immune to an infectious disease, either through previous infections or vaccinations, the spread of the disease is significantly reduced. However, achieving herd immunity through natural infection, as some early proponents suggested, poses severe risks, including high mortality rates, especially among vulnerable populations.

 

2. **Ethical Concerns**:

   Advocating for herd immunity without a robust vaccination strategy can be seen as ethically problematic. The idea of allowing the virus to spread unchecked, leading to potential deaths, particularly among the weak and vulnerable, raises questions about the value placed on human life. Critics argue that such a strategy reflects a **callous disregard for the suffering** of individuals and families affected by the disease. The notion that "the fittest will survive" echoes a dangerous ideology that undermines the ethical responsibility of public health officials to protect all citizens.

 

3. **Medical Perspective**:

   From a medical standpoint, the approach of achieving herd immunity through natural infection is fraught with danger. The World Health Organization and other health authorities have emphasized that herd immunity should be achieved through **vaccination**, not by exposing populations to the virus. This is particularly crucial given the unpredictable nature of COVID-19, including the emergence of variants that could evade immunity.

 

4. **Public Perception and Trust**:

   The public's interpretation of herd immunity, especially in the context of ongoing suffering and death, can lead to a significant erosion of trust in health authorities. When scientists and officials discuss herd immunity without acknowledging the immediate human cost, it can create a perception that certain lives are expendable for the sake of the greater good. This disconnect can fuel public outrage and skepticism towards health policies.

 

5. **Conclusion**:

   In summary, while herd immunity is a valid public health goal, the methods proposed to achieve it during the COVID-19 pandemic—especially those that involve allowing the virus to spread unchecked—were both medically and ethically questionable. The focus should have been on protecting vulnerable populations and ensuring widespread vaccination to achieve herd immunity safely and humanely. The discussions around herd immunity must always consider the **human impact** and prioritize the health and well-being of all individuals in society.

(7)

Soman Ragavan :  

If and when the next pandemic strikes, what would be your recommendations to national authorities ?

 

(8)

You Chat AI :

#### Recommendations for National Authorities in Future Pandemics

 

In light of the experiences from the COVID-19 pandemic, here are several recommendations for national authorities to consider if and when the next pandemic strikes:

 

1. **Early Detection and Surveillance**:

   - Establish robust surveillance systems to detect outbreaks early. This includes investing in technology and infrastructure for real-time data collection and analysis to monitor infectious diseases effectively.

 

2. **Transparent Communication**:

   - Maintain clear and transparent communication with the public. Authorities should provide regular updates about the situation, guidelines, and health measures to build trust and ensure compliance.

 

3. **Public Health Legislation**:

   - Review and, if necessary, update public health legislation to ensure that it allows for swift action during a pandemic. This may include provisions for quarantine, travel restrictions, and resource allocation while balancing individual rights and public health needs.

 

4. **Healthcare System Preparedness**:

   - Strengthen healthcare infrastructure to handle surges in patient numbers. This includes ensuring adequate supplies of medical equipment, personal protective equipment (PPE), and trained healthcare personnel.

 

5. **Vaccine Development and Distribution**:

   - Invest in vaccine research and development before a pandemic occurs. Establish partnerships with pharmaceutical companies and international organizations to ensure rapid production and equitable distribution of vaccines.

 

6. **Community Engagement**:

   - Involve communities in planning and response efforts. Engaging local leaders and organizations can help tailor responses to specific community needs and improve public adherence to health measures.

 

7. **Mental Health Support**:

   - Recognize the psychological impact of pandemics and provide mental health support services. This should be integrated into the overall public health response to address the emotional and psychological needs of the population.

 

8. **Global Collaboration**:

   - Foster international cooperation to share information, resources, and best practices. Pandemics are global challenges that require coordinated responses across borders.

 

9. **Equity in Health Access**:

   - Ensure that health interventions, including vaccines and treatments, are accessible to all segments of the population, particularly vulnerable and marginalized groups.

 

10. **Post-Pandemic Review**:

    - After the pandemic, conduct a thorough review of the response to identify lessons learned and areas for improvement. This should involve input from healthcare professionals, policymakers, and the public.

 

By implementing these recommendations, national authorities can better prepare for and respond to future pandemics, ultimately saving lives and minimizing societal disruption.

 

(9)

Soman Ragavan :

Whereas some English scientists spoke of herd immunity, India gave vaccines to some other countries even while her own population had not been fully vaccinated. Comment on this and tie it with Indian philosophies.

 

(10)

You Chat AI : 

 

#### Commentary on Herd Immunity and India's Vaccine Distribution

 

The discussion surrounding **herd immunity** during the COVID-19 pandemic has raised significant ethical and medical questions, particularly when comparing the approaches of different countries. In England, some scientists suggested allowing the virus to spread to achieve herd immunity, which many viewed as a callous disregard for human life, especially as the virus was already causing deaths globally. In contrast, India took a different approach by exporting vaccines to other countries even while its own population was not fully vaccinated.

 

#### Ethical Considerations

 

The notion of herd immunity, particularly in the context of a pandemic, is fraught with ethical dilemmas. Advocating for herd immunity without adequate measures to protect vulnerable populations can be seen as prioritizing theoretical outcomes over human lives. The idea that a population could be allowed to suffer significant losses for the sake of immunity raises profound moral questions. In India, the decision to export vaccines while many citizens remained unvaccinated reflects a complex interplay of national pride, global responsibility, and ethical considerations.

 

#### Indian Philosophies and Global Responsibility

 

India's decision to share vaccines with other countries can be tied to its philosophical and cultural values, which often emphasize **selflessness and communal well-being**. The concept of **"Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam,"** meaning "the world is one family," is deeply rooted in Indian philosophy. This principle suggests that helping others, even at a cost to oneself, is a noble pursuit. By exporting vaccines, India positioned itself as a global leader in health diplomacy, showcasing a commitment to collective well-being over individual gain.

 

However, this approach also raises questions about the balance between national needs and global responsibilities. While the act of sharing vaccines is commendable, it highlights the need for a more equitable distribution strategy that ensures the health of the domestic population is prioritized alongside international commitments.

 

#### Conclusion

 

In summary, the contrasting approaches to herd immunity and vaccine distribution during the COVID-19 pandemic illustrate the complexities of public health ethics. While the idea of herd immunity can be scientifically valid, its application must consider the human cost involved. India's actions reflect a philosophical commitment to global solidarity, yet they also underscore the necessity for a balanced approach that safeguards the health of its own citizens while contributing to global health efforts.

 

(11)

Soman Ragavan :

Please make concluding remarks.

(12)

You Chat AI : 

 

### Medically and Ethically Right to Speak of Herd Immunity

 

The discussion around **herd immunity** during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic raises significant ethical and medical concerns. While herd immunity can be a natural outcome of widespread vaccination or infection, advocating for it as a strategy when a virus is already causing deaths is ethically questionable. The notion of allowing a virus to spread unchecked, with the expectation that the population would eventually become immune, disregards the immediate suffering and loss of life. It can be perceived as a callous approach that prioritizes theoretical outcomes over human lives, particularly affecting the vulnerable and those with pre-existing conditions.

 

### Recommendations for Future Pandemics

 

In the event of a future pandemic, national authorities should prioritize **swift action** and **public health measures** that protect all citizens. Recommendations include:

 

1. **Immediate Lockdowns and Restrictions**: Implementing early lockdowns to slow the spread of the virus can save lives and prevent healthcare systems from becoming overwhelmed.
2. **Transparent Communication**: Authorities should communicate clearly and transparently about the risks and the rationale behind public health measures to maintain public trust.
3. **Investment in Healthcare Infrastructure**: Strengthening healthcare systems to handle surges in cases is crucial. This includes ensuring adequate supplies of medical equipment and personnel.
4. **Global Cooperation**: Countries should collaborate on vaccine development and distribution to ensure equitable access for all nations, especially those with fewer resources.

 

### India's Vaccine Diplomacy and Philosophical Context

 

India's decision to export vaccines while its own population was not fully vaccinated highlights a complex interplay of **national pride** and **philosophical values**. This approach can be seen as an embodiment of the Indian philosophy of **selflessness and sacrifice**, where the welfare of others is prioritized, even at the cost of one's own needs. The act of providing vaccines to other countries reflects a commitment to global health and solidarity, showcasing India's role as a responsible global player. However, it also raises ethical questions about the balance between national needs and international responsibilities.

 

### Concluding Remarks

 

The COVID-19 pandemic has exposed the fragility of public health systems and the ethical dilemmas faced by scientists and policymakers. The discussions around herd immunity, vaccine distribution, and the responsibilities of nations highlight the need for a compassionate and scientifically informed approach to public health. As we move forward, it is essential to learn from these experiences to ensure that future responses to pandemics prioritize human life and dignity, fostering a global community that values health equity and solidarity.

(13)

Soman Ragavan :

Thank you very much. Goodbye for now.

(14)

You Chat AI : 

 

#### Conclusion

 

You're very welcome, Soman! I'm glad I could assist you today. If you have more questions or need support in the future, don’t hesitate to reach out.

 

**Goodbye for now, and take care!**

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Internet links :

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https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=bori8s+johnson+fit+like+a+butcher%27s+dog

 

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwid6NSCgOTvAhUmEWMBHY79BBcQFjABegQIBRAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.itv.com%2Fnews%2F2020-11-16%2Fboris-johnson-goes-into-self-isolation-just-as-he-tries-to-relaunch-premiership&usg=AOvVaw1P4WYG60TO5z_5XmwGWYlO

 

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(5 )Covid in Sweden :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjqsouWz-TvAhWltXEKHVyXCSoQFjAHegQICxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fworld%2F2020%2F11%2F18%2Fsweden-coronavirus-surge-policy%2F&usg=AOvVaw12VFJQioUTrEb6uEnG4t9N

 

(6) Herd immunity in England about Covid :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh8bKlhOTvAhU0EWMBHR5XA7EQFjAAegQIAhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-politics-54252272&usg=AOvVaw3xribUmKpgYTDwjcoFqk5k

 

 

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh8bKlhOTvAhU0EWMBHR5XA7EQFjABegQICBAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-53433824&usg=AOvVaw0jIzEjiuce0aRk5eq_Y5RI

 

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh8bKlhOTvAhU0EWMBHR5XA7EQFjACegQICxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Ff75418a9-9ef5-4684-9222-758635e906b1&usg=AOvVaw35cO8mWoPPJAnRqu_5PSWo

 

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjh8bKlhOTvAhU0EWMBHR5XA7EQFjAEegQIBxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalgeographic.com%2Fscience%2Farticle%2Fuk-backed-off-on-herd-immunity-to-beat-coronavirus-we-need-it&usg=AOvVaw3bH0XaRSYNV6LOFpdk272n

(5)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54252272

 

              (6)  Doctor in Canada, ill from Covid :

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=i+don%27t+want+to+die+on+a+machine   

 

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